Monday, November 10, 2008

Israel's move towards Civil War

Just when you think the Self-Loathing Concessionist State of Israel can't go any further left...

Ynet News: "I am not trying to retroactively justify the Oslo Accords, which I was against. But they defined a direction – and that direction is inevitable. After we learned to live with the guilt and pain we paid for Oslo, the ongoing terror and the disappointment with the stagnated diplomatic process, we are once again at the heart of the dispute. Now however, the time to make decisions grows closer, and we are at a precipice," said Olmert.

"Any government will have to tell the truth, and that truth, unfortunately, will require us to tear away many parts of the homeland, in Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

"Anyone who thinks we can evade making a decision and continue to build ties with Arab and Muslim countries, as we are doing today – is living in a dream," he said.

Speaking of the domestic conflict in Israel, 13 years after Rabin's murder, Olmert warned that "the incitement hasn't lessened. The instigation hasn't decreased, and the hatred hasn't faded. Israeli citizens cruelly beat Palestinians who seek to harvest their olives, as they have done for hundreds of years in the places they and their families have lived. Young Israelis, overwhelmed by messianic dreams that have no foundation in the reality of our lives – beat our soldiers, break their bones and threaten their lives – and there is no end."
Incredible that the Prime Minister of Israel is publicly bashing and mocking Zionists who believe Israel is the exclusive, eternal, God-given homeland of the Jewish people, as if it's such a radical concept that those who believe in religious Zionism can be safely scorned by mainstream Jews in the Land of Israel without political risk.

On Kristalnacht we have the Israeli Prime Minister demanding the Jews give up Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and the Golan to the arabs who want to exterminate the Jews. Then, blame Jews who oppose this suicidal act for inciting moslem terrorists to kill Jews in some mentally ill form of logic that only a self-loathing defeatist could understand.

The Settlers are breaking the bones and threatening the lives of the Israeli soldiers? The Settlers are inciting and beating the innocent moslems? Uh, yeah, that's the's the damn Jews who wear yarmulkes that are ruining the world, so we must round them all up in boxcars and transport them to DP camps, and give their homes, land and wealth to the arabs so there can be "peace in our time"...


In other news, Bibi Netanyahu is refusing to allow former IDF general and military hero MK Effie Eitam join the Likud Party, because he will make them appear too "hawkish" for the liberal Israeli electorate. He then vowed to continue Olmert's "peace plan" of offering concessions and "good will gestures" to the arabs if he becomes the next PM.

Oh goody...

Eitam will likely align himself with Moshe Feiglin's leadership faction of the Likud Party, which is virtually banned by Netanyahu from being recognized in Likud despite their widespread popularity among Likud members. With polls currently showing a near even race between Kadima and Likud, we can expect that in all likelihood Livni or Bibi, whichever represents the majority party, will form a unity government.

This"progressive" unity government will turn their sites towards the Settlers for expulsion and pogroms, and it is at this time that a rebellion as we haven't seen since the time of the Maccabes will likely take place, as the quarter million Settlers slated for destruction reject the validity of the Israeli government orders to withdraw, and fight to the death for Jewish sovereignty over Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria.



  1. Your perception of the "settlers" is wrong. They are determined to continue the dream of our forefathers but they will not allow Zionist values and dreams to effect basic Jewish religious principles which are holier to them than the Land of Israel. They will not hurt IDF soldiers even as they are (G-d forbid) being evacuated. Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein had good intentions, yet they misinterpretted halacha.

    BTW: where did you hear that Kadima and Likud were in a "dead heat" so to speak? Likud is projected to get anywhere from 25 to 30 seats whereas Kadima is going to be reduced to a Meretz-like entity...virtually non-existent.

    I agree with you on Bibi. Hopefully, Feiglin will be on the first 25 and get a Knesset seat following elections.

  2. Actually, polls show Zippo is still slightly favored over Bibi, not that it matters as they are indistinguishable on policy. Whoever told you that Kadima was going to bomb out gave you wrong info.

    Also, whoever told you that the majority of Settlers believe in pacifist interperetations of halacha, and will surrender without a fight, misled you. I personally know a few, and they vow it will be much, much different than Gaza, and will fight with a ferocity like you cannot possibly imagine.

    The question isn't whether or not the settlers will fight rodef to the death for the land they possess, rather whether or not the IDF will accept the status of rodef and willingly carry out wicked orders against halacha when faced with settlers who are heavily armed and determined to fight to the death.

    If you doubt the validity of the religious obligation for Jews to kill even fellow Jews who seek to take away the Land of Israel and hand it to the arabs, I suggest you read this.

  3. MZ, Eitan, I truly dont know what we Jews living in YESHA will do if a mass expulsion order is given.

    We must avoid a civil war, in this generation in particular when the vast majority of Jews are as stolen children not fully responsible for their actions we must not raise our hands against our brothers.

    Of course we must resist expulsion with every ounce of strength, but may Hashem save us from killing one another.

    MZ, we the Daati Leumi, who know better have failed in that we should have brought all Jews back to Torah and a love of Eretz Yisrael. It is not too late to turn things around but we will need to take responsibility and provide genuine leadership to the nation as a whole.

  4. Israeli polls are notoriously unreliable.

    If the government continues on its current path, and no one seeks to rein in Barack so he can continue his pogrom against the Jews unmolested, then I do believe you will see Israeli civil society fractured and an insurrection is certainly possible. Who would willingly choose to be a Gush Katif refugee?

    IDF commanders now have to lie to those under their command or risk having their orders refused (Federman farm). We have alleged super Jew Noam Federman handcuffed and pinned down by at least 10 Yassam but still managing to break the leg (or is it an arm?) of a security official. Last winter we saw 7 young teenage girls choose incarceration rather than cooperate with the Israeli government officials. All year I have been watching the Israeli judicial system pervert its own laws in order to stifle dissent and attempt to break the more visible of the Yesha activists.

    Meanwhile the government chooses impotence under kassam or bulldozer attack and actively criticizes the IDF Chief Rabbi for teaching Torah and Talmud to IDF soldiers...

    More importantly, there are very few realist politicians in the Israeli secular left. The lesson of Gush Katif is completely lost on them. When you cannot even re-settle 9,000 Jewish families how do you honestly expect to settle even 10 times that number within the Armistice border of 1949 Israel? An influx of only 80,000 Jews living in the smaller outposts of Yesha cannot be resettled successfully within the 1949 armistice borders. It would break the educational system, the healthcare system and let us not even talk about housing or employment situation. Who will pick up that bill? Don’t look to the international community to pony up – everyone has their own problems and their hands fill with managing their own failing economies. But that does not mean the secular left will not attempt it. If the secular lefties were as smart as they think they are – they would start by canceling Chanukah.

  5. KL, I wish you strength, courage and wisdom as the time of crisis in YESHA quickly approaches. Continue to hope for the best but prepare for the worst, as it seems nothing short of a miracle will stop the self-loathers from giving orders to make Judea, Samaria and the Golan Judenrein, and declare Jerusalem the capital of New Palestine.

    Be'hatzlecha, my friend. My heart is with you.

  6. Israel needs to face facts. The ONLY way they'll ever have peace is if they conquer and subdue the entire Middle East, and turn the surrounding Arab nations into eunich-lead tributary states. Then they can banish all Arabs from greater Israel and live much as the Saudi's do.

  7. FJ, why would Israel want to conquer the ME and live under Sharia Law as the Saudis do? We are Jews, not moslems.

    BTW, even if the Jews successfully expelled the arabs the Jewish State would not be a halachic state (state governed by Jewish Law), but a Jewish only democratic state that respects Jewish Law...

  8. Very nice summary, Kateland. The fact is the lessons learned from Gush are not lost upon the Jews in Yehuda v'Shomron. They will not lie on the ground in a passive, peaceful resistance that is doomed to fail as happened before.

    KL can't directly say it, but he all but admitted that what the Israeli police and soldiers will face if they try such a pogrom in these Lands is a fight that will trigger something much, much bigger and nastier. Count on it.

  9. MZ, Eitan:

    Seems Bibi might be lost to your cause:

    Netanyahu, who took part in a right-wing demonstration rife with incitement against Rabin a month before the latter was shot dead at the end of a peace rally in Tel Aviv, sounded markedly different in the Knesset on Monday.

    "We cannot tolerate the voices that today call for attacks against the prime minister of Israel or IDF soldiers," said Netanyahu, "The lesson we all have learned is that a responsible leadership must take action against incitement. We will not allow reckless and violent instigation against law enforcement."

    Sounds like code destined for the settlers to me. Moving to the centre for electoral reasons, that much is clear.

    Meanwhile, Livni seems to be distancing herself from Olmert's comments.

    All in all, this sounds like the usual political game of Musical Chairs, with the political hot potato being passed quickly from one player to the other(s).

    I wonder whether there exist any nationwide and reliable polls on the mood of the country as a whole, vis-à-vis the thorny issue of 'disengagement' from Judea and Samaria. Anyone?

  10. Gert, Bibi was lost 10 years ago when he ran to the right to get elected and then embraced Arafat, Oslo, and gave away most of Hebron.

  11. FJ, why would Israel want to conquer the ME and live under Sharia Law as the Saudis do? We are Jews, not moslems.

    Because YOU wouldn't have to live under Sharia Law, and you could impose a secular democratic state on them.

    BTW, even if the Jews successfully expelled the arabs the Jewish State would not be a halachic state (state governed by Jewish Law), but a Jewish only democratic state that respects Jewish Law...

    Then I guess you're stuck living with Moslem's and being bombed and assassinated by them forever. C'est la vie!

  12. Farmer, normally I am pretty quick to get the subtleties, but you're baffling me with your commnents. How is it c'est la vie to Israel if they expel the moslems?

  13. MZ: You say you know some settlers who would oppose the army with arms. I know a little bit about the Federman family and even though Noam might break an arm here and there, he wouldn't fire at soldiers. I know this because he's had ample opportunity to do so in Avraham Avinu and Kiryat Arba. Another example is Itomar ben Gvir. He wouldn't shoot at soldiers either as much of a Kahane fan as he may be.

    What it comes down to is that I feel you're making assumptions when you claim to know "settlers" who'd forcibly resist evacuation. Another point is the question of what constitutes "force." The Jews of Hevron would fight/stuggle to the last but would not use live ammunition on soldiers. The only exception I can think of is if they used Druze soldiers to evacuate "settlers" as an answer to "Yehudi lo migaresh Yehudi."

    For some reason I was expecting Kadima to be reduced to a marginal party. I guess that was just that: an expectation.

  14. Eitan, you simply don't see the diferenece between orders to mass expel the Jews from Judea, Samaria, Golan and even parts of Jerusalem, so that it can be given to the enemy as a "good will gesture" and removing a couple Jews from an outpost of a few temporary shacks.

    Rest assured, the strategic failure in Aza will never be repeated by the settlers in this part of Yesha.

  15. If Israel did not become a halachic state, and were to remain a "Democratic" state, it would be back in the same position it is today within three generations.

    Democratic states are inherently "decadent". They "confuse" values. Why do you think the Moslems INSIST on becoming Sharia states? They're not stupid. They've read Plato's Republic/Laws.

  16. Are you saying Gush Katif was an outpost; that Yamit was a couple of shacks?

  17. FJ, while a Jewish State being governed by Jewish law is an ideal worth aspiring to, it is not realistic when 90% of the Jewish population doesn't want it.

    Even Kahane understood that survival for the Jewish State comes from having it governed exclusively by Jews for an exclusively Jewish electorate with deference to Jewish Law.

    We are not looking to establish a police state to find out if a Jew is separating his milk and meat dishes properly. We are looking to make a state in Israel where Jews can dwell securely in their Holy Land with a government that doesn't violate Jewish Law.

  18. Eitan, what are you talking about?

  19. MZ, I think its a bit chutzpadik for you to be calling for Jews to kill other Jews while you sit comfortably in Florida. I'm sorry if that sounded rude but chas v'shalom that we should spill Jewish blood.

    The Talmud asks why a certain king of Israel (I believe Assah) was victorious in wars, even more than David HaMelech, even though he was an idolater. The answer is that during his time, Am Yisrael lived in peace. There is nothing HaShem loves more than peace among Am Yisrael. Yes, the Jewish public must resist any expulsion but if it comes to bloodshed, all is lost.

    Our Sages said (Eliyahu Rabbah 28):

    So said G-d to Israel: "My children! Have I failed to give you anything? What do I ask of you? Only that you love, respect and revere one another, and that you avoid all sin, theft and unseemly behavior."

  20. BK, I don't call for anything, I'm mearly reporting what is likely to happen. I'm a bit disappointed in you.

  21. Also, this just in: Those of you who are dreaming of the Israeli government to grant peace in Yesha, please realize that the self-loathers seeks peace with the arabs, NOT the Zionists.

    When they dispatch their forces to expel the Jews, they mean to beat Jews with clubs, bulldoze their homes, schools and synagogues, and then herd them into tent cities where they will suffer from extreme poverty, hunger, and homelessness (the Gush victims are STILL largely homeless, broke, and unemployed). Meanwhile, the moslems will be dancing on the remains of the Jewish cities and towns that the self-loathing Israeli forces emptied by arab decree via the IDF.

    If all of you sensitive types feel we can stop this from happening with hand holding, tears, prayer and love, i.e. the Gush model, well, I have no time for you. You will never learn.

    If the Jews of Yesha stand and fight, even with deadly force if necessary, to stop the self-loathers from doing the arabs dirty work of dividing Jerusalem and making Yesha Judenrein, well, I WILL support them every step of the way.

    Will you?

  22. I meant exactly what I said. You claim that whereas we did practically nothing while the IDF expelled "settlers" from lonely barracks and outposts we will do something a lot more serious if they decide to push us out of Judea and Samaria and I gave you the examples of Yamit and Gush Katif. In both cases there was almost no resistance.

    I agree completely with Bar. It is hutzpani of you to live in Florida and demand that the "settlers" spill Jewish blood. Mind you, young tzahal soldiers don't always have bad intentions; even those evacuating other Jews. They're following orders which they will sit in jail for if they don't follow.

  23. Eitan, please show evidence of me demanding Jews kill Jews. You won't find it. What I have said is that because of the abject failure of the pacifism of Gush, the Settlers have indicated NEVER AGAIN! They have sworn that future pogroms issued by the concessionist, treasonous Israeli government to eradicate Jews from their land and give it to the arabs will be met with force, not pacifism.

    Answer this question right now: If the Jews of Yesha fight expulsion, with deadly force if necessary, will you support their fight or will you take the side of the self-loathers who are accepting rodef orders in violation of Jewish Law?

    Will you support those who wish to embolden the enemy that wants to kill the Jews, or will you side with those who fight back against such wicked decrees?

  24. Slightly O/T question for Farmer John (assuming he's around to read this):

    FJ wrote:

    "Democratic states are inherently "decadent". They "confuse" values. Why do you think the Moslems INSIST on becoming Sharia states? They're not stupid. They've read Plato's Republic/Laws."

    Am I to conclude that for the USA too you believe theocratic rule would be better than democratic and common law rule? (No sarcasm or irony intended)


    "Eitan, please show evidence of me demanding Jews kill Jews. You won't find it."

    No, but that's sophistry: once the resistance starts shooting at the IDF people (Jews) will die, that's as clear as night follows day...

  25. Gert, I understand that you agree with the policies of concessions and good will gestures to try and bring peace, so you would never support Settler resistance. That's consistent with your position.

    My point is how really disappointiong it is to see Jews who alledge to be strong Zionists apparently not supporting the Settlers right to defend themselves from pogroms.

    Again, my question that remains unanswered to BK and Eitan: If the Jews of Yesha stand and fight, even with deadly force if necessary, to stop the self-loathers from dividing Jerusalem and making Yesha Judenrein at the behest of the arabs, WILL YOU support their fight, or take the side of the rodef forces who are "just following orders"?

  26. MZ: If the "settlers" (let's use the term 'mityoshvim' from now on. How 'bout it!?) use deadly force against soldiers as a last resort against expulsion...well...I have to think about it. You know discuss it with my Rabbi and such. I'll get back to you. It's a good question and I need to see what the halachic approach would be.

  27. We are looking to make a state in Israel where Jews can dwell securely in their Holy Land with a government that doesn't violate Jewish Law.

    You mean government officials separate their meat from dairy? And if 90% of Jews don't want Jewish Law, then what's the point? Let the gays march their s&m floats up to the Temple Mount.

    Am I to conclude that for the USA too you believe theocratic rule would be better than democratic and common law rule? (No sarcasm or irony intended)

    Better? No. Longer lasting? Yes. But even a theocracy will eventually lose it's raison d'etre. It's simply of matter of how quickly you want to watch Ixion's Wheel spin.

    I prefer a nice "slow" spin. Life has more "meaning" that way. Democracy is merely the last and quickest spinning phase before tyranny (Plato, "Republic")

    Spartan society lasted a thousand years. Egyptian, many thousand. Athens, only a few hundred. Rome was only a quasi-democratic Republic for five hundred. The post-Roman papacy has lasted 1,500 years. Islam 1,300.

    Theocracy is fairly "long-lived".

  28. Why use the term settlers, first of all? If the Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria, chas v'shalom, kill Israeli soldiers, than I cannot stand by that. If Jewish blood is spilled, then the battle will be lost. The Jews of Judea and Samaria must resist with all their might, but deadly force cannot be used.

    MZ, I still love ya, bud. ;)

  29. BK, the term "Settlers" is not at all a pejorative; it's affectionate. I appreciate that Jews of valor have bravely spread out into our land and settled it despite facing the wrath of the entire world for doing so.

    Also, you keep saying you don't want to see any Jewish blood spilled. Will you feel that way when Yehuda v'Shamron are in Arab hands, Jerusalem is their capital, the Settlers are in DP camps starving, the arabs are granted right of return, and the terrorists are firing missiles into Jerusalem and Tel Aviv on a daily basis like they are now in Sderot?

    Be careful who you condemn. There is a reason we are obligated by Torah to fight the rodef, not appease them.

    We are faced with a war of Milchemet Mitzvah.

  30. MZ: I'm sorry I didn't get back to you like I said I would. I'll do so tomorrow (bli neder). My foot hurt too much and I was too tired. Before I get this matter cleared up with a Rabbi I'm in no authority to judge. I learned a valuable lesson when being told that saying something bad about oneself is also considered lashon ha'ra but when I say I'm a tinok she'nidba I'm stating a fact. Hope you'll understand.

  31. BK, the king you were thinking of was not Assah, who was righteous, but Achav who was very evil.

  32. FJ, you seem to be a very cynical. You studied some aristotle and now believe in a philisophical relativism for which you paint all things with broad strokes.

    Jewish Law is not equivalent to Sharia Law. American system of representative government is not pure democracy. Aristotle new nothing of American or Jewish law.

    I'm hoping you used sarcasm when responding to my point about the government respecting Jewish Law. You know what I meant has to do with public policy and how they conduct themselves when representing Israel's affairs. I certainly don't want a police state breaking into their homes to find out if they made any koshrus mistakes.

    It's all about being a Jewish State rather than a multinational state of all peoples. Israel cannot, must not, be a melting pot and a Jewish State at the same time.

  33. Sorry Madze. I'm still trying to understand and learn about what you and the Jews are going on about when you talk about your Jewish state. It's my belief, to paraphrase the Jewish & classical liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin, that "some of the great goods cannot live together. We are forced to choose, hence the saying, the tragic nature of choice".

    And I'm not being "cynical". Cynics have NO values. I support selecting "one" first principle and then allowing the rest to flow naturally from there.

    I'm not saying that the Jewish government needs to enforce every single Jewish law in a halachic state, but I am saying that they'd better not try and enforce any laws that AREN'T part of halakha or are derived from a different value system if they truly wish to remain a "Jewish" state.

    Are democracy and liberal humanism a part of the halachic tradition? If not, they need to go. Or you'll find yourselves serving too many masters with conflicting and competing value systems.

    Is your first principle Jewish or secular? Are you looking to establish a "Jewish state" or a "secular democracy"? I think you have to choose and be willing to suffer the losses and tragedies that result. A "Jewish democracy" such as you seem to envision sounds like an oxymoron, unless you are willing to suffer and tolerate many violations of Jewish law and traditions (ie - gay parades).

  34. I'm not saying that the Jewish government needs to enforce every single Jewish law in a halachic state, but I am saying that they'd better not try and enforce any laws that AREN'T part of halakha or are derived from a different value system if they truly wish to remain a "Jewish" state.

    Stop there...this is what I've been saying all along, with one correction: Halacha is a legal system, not a set of values. So long as the government is not contradicting halacha, than having a Jewish only representative government would be just fine.

  35. Halacha is a legal system, not a set of values...

    Jewish law does not represent a specific set of values? How is that possible? Are you saying that it's as value neutral as a brick and mortar courtroom might be? Are you saying that a Moslem or Christian would feel perfectly comfortable being tried according to halacha, being as how Jewish law is so "value neutral"?

    I must be missing something... if it's anything like shariah, its anything BUT a value-neutral legal system.

  36. FJ. values can be gleened from Torah text as well as halacha, but ethics and values themselves are not halachic. Piekre Avos, an ethical tractate located within the mishna, and not halachic in nature, addresses morality.

    I don't expect you to understand, FJ. It's a very complicated matter and you don't have enough background on this to even begin such a discussion (nor do I desire to).

    Values and morals change over time, but our obligations and commandments are eternal and what God expects of us whether we understand it or not. We certainly strive for understanding the "why", but even if we can't figure out for sure the reason God doesn't want us to mix linen and wool in our clothing the fact remains that we can't.

  37. Sounds to me like the Jews have been so busy splitting hairs and separating the pieces for so long they've lost the ability to see the whole, anymore. I would contend that certain "correct" values and morals are absolute, eternal and unchanging and rightfully represent our obligations to G_d and and His Commandments but that it is our understanding of them that varies and changes and is fraught with misunderstandings and uncertainty....

    Well, thanks for humoring me. I don't have the patience for such silliness any more.

  38. FJ, we understand that Torah is both a code of laws as well as a warm, loving book of lessons on how to do what is right in God's eyes.

    I can feel your frustration with Judaism not being clear or what you thought it was, but that's something you'll simply have to try and overcome.

  39. I don't think that's going to happen, Madze. It's more likely to just move back into the "not my problem" pile. Thanks for your patience.

  40. MZ: I don't know why I couldn't come up with an answer to your question independently. I just wanted to make sure my Rabbi's halachic interpretation mirrored mine.

    If "settlers" begin using live ammunition and shooting at IDF soldiers, whether Jewish or Druze, I would turn away from them. No where in the Torah does it OK this kind of behavior. You are a religious Jew. No one doubts that. Please come up with a halachic statement to the contrary of what I just said.

    Otherwise, you've been proven wrong. Please don't be disappointed in me;-)

  41. Eitan, obviously using live ammo or deadly force should be the last resort, but let me be perfectly clear: I would support any resistance the Settlers felt necessary to stop the pogroms, division of Jerusalem, and ceding of Judea and Samaria to the animals who are trying to kill us.

    You ask: Please come up with a halachic statement to the contrary of what I just said.

    I answer: Top Rabbi: Din Rodef on anyone ceding Land

  42. MZ: the article (and the Rabbi's opinion) is sketchy at best. Note also, that it's one Rabbi's opinion and that it's the first case in which a reputable Rabbi has made such a case.


Thank you for commenting. Respectful debate and dissent are welcomed. MZ reserves the right to censor for any reason without explanation.