Sunday, May 21, 2006

Rodef Gazans rocket an Israeli school

The vermin launched attacks on Sderot today from northern Gaza, where the Jews used to live until being expelled by Ariel Sharon, hitting a religious school classroom just before the students and teacher were about to enter. I'm afraid it will only get worse before it gets better, as secular Israelis are either indifferent or overjoyed when religious Jews are rocketed by the moslem filth.

Arutz Sheva - The first rocket was fired by Palestinian terrorists from northern Gaza shortly after 7:30 AM, landing at the Gevim Junction just south of Sderot. Two women were treated at the site for shock. Shortly afterwards, the Red Dawn early-warning alarm system sounded, giving the residents some 20-30 seconds to run for cover.

Within minutes, it was learned that a rocket had in fact hit - in a classroom in the center of town.

"The students were on their way to the classroom after finishing morning prayers," one person who arrived on the scene told Arutz-7, "and the classroom was still locked. Some students were waiting outside, and the teacher was on his way up - and that's when all of a sudden the rocket crashed in, hitting the teacher's chair. The teacher was very emotional, seeing that it had crashed exactly where he would have been sitting minutes later."

One person was treated for shock.

"By miracle," one local woman told Arutz-7, "no one was hurt - but how long can we rely on these miracles, merely because of our leaders' foolish decisions enabling the terrorists to shoot at us? Today and Tuesday are market days here in Sderot, just two blocks away from the school, and the hesder yeshiva is two blocks to the other side - it could have landed anywhere and killed people. How long can this go on?"
It will go on as long as the rodef vermin are permitted to live in Eretz Israel, and not one day less.

-MZ

58 comments:

  1. the merry widow5/21/2006 3:36 PM

    Praise G*D there were no injuries! These attacks are reprehensible and indefensible! I hope a few Israeli munitions find thier way over into the general vicinity of the firings!

    tmw

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  2. It will go on as long as the rodef vermin are permitted to live in Eretz Israel, and not one day less.

    but the attacks came from gaza, which isn't eretz yisroel anyways.

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  3. Menachem, you have no clue about the Land's boundaries or history, do you? It is most certianly Eretz Israel, and if you disagree than you have no doubt been brainwashed by liberal Rabbis trying to justify the unjustifiable.

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  4. kahaneloyalist5/21/2006 5:01 PM

    Menachem, that is not true, not only was Gaza promised to the Jewish people David HaMelech conquered Gaza, and once terrotory is conquered it is eternally part of Eretz Yisrael.

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  5. interesting opinions you guys have.

    the rabbis of gush katif seem to disagree with you, seeing as how they've been selling gush katif produce in israel every shmita year since they first settled there.

    kahaneloyalist, not only was gaza never conquered by david, but the area occupied by the philistenes in his time extended all the way up from gaza to include ashkelon and ashdod.

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  6. Menachem, ever heard of Samson?

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  7. Menachem, the shmita laws are complex and highly debated. I am no expert on these laws, but I will look up halachic rulings and commentaries to see whether or not the laws have indeed been violated.

    Thanks for bringing up this important discussion.

    -MZ

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  8. naivete here - doesn't the law specifically state to allow the land to rest every seventh year?

    i know some native american tribes in the days of old would burn particular pieces of ground every seventh year and allow it to rest as the "Great Spirit" commanded.

    very interesting.

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  9. After doing some research, I believe I have the answers to whether or not shmita laws were violated in Gaza by farming produce during the shmita years.

    It seems there are two reasons why the shmita laws were not violated.

    #1. Otzar Bet Din - All produce is handled through a bet din who act as agents for the final consumer. All farmers, middlemen etc. are paid only for their time and effort but not profits. No work is allowed in the fields except to prevent loss of the product. Most "shemitta stores" in Israel rely on the Otzar Bet Din.

    #2. Heter Mechira - The produce of nonjews has no holiness. Thus, the land is sold to a nonjew but major planting still cannot be done by Jews. This was sanctioned by several prominent rabbis over a hundred years because of the plight of the Jewish farmer in that day. It was later championed by R. Kook who however insisted that it was a temporary measure based on economics.

    Of the two, it is best that the Otzar Beit Din ruling be used, as the laws of selling Land to the goyim is forbidden unless in emergency situations to save lives. That temporary measure is not necessary today, thus the beit din would be the best method for legal shmita sales in Eretz Israel.

    Gaza farmers, having been ruled as Eretz Israel by virtually all relevent rabbinic sources, had been following these two shmita procedures to farm produce before the concessionist Israeli government ethnically cleansed them and made Gaza Judenrein.

    Thanks again for calling attention to this improtant detail, Menachem.

    Information above was gathered from: HERE.

    -MZ

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  10. samson didn't conquer any land. he just freed the jews from philistene servitude.

    david, when he was being chased by shaul, fled to gaza to hide under the protection of the philistenes.

    as for shmita, even those who don't hold of heter mechira eat food from gush katif. it's allowed because of sfek sfeika. it's a safek whether or not gush katif is eretz yisrael, and it's a safek whether or not hydroponics (food grown in water, not soil, which is what gush katif used) violates the laws of shmita. so according to the rabbis of gush katif, gaza was only a safek eretz yisrael.

    are you willing to die, or kill for a safek?

    your link didn't work. check it.

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  11. Menachem, do you always paskin with the liberal minority? The laws that make Gaza safik you speak of are accepted only by anti-Zionists and self-loathing Jews. To which group do you belong?

    Also, your reasoning was flawed. It is not that Gaza was considered Safek, rather it is the entire law of shmita that the minority ruled was safek, i.e., since we have doubt as to whether we are accurate as to when the shmita year really falls we are not obligated to observe the laws of shmita at all.

    In addition, the fringe rabbis who ruled your desired way stated that since we live in a time when an exile still exists, and that all Jews aren't gathjered to the Land, shmita laws are not required.

    And finally, the Shmita laws that were ruled as Safek were ruled as such because we are without a Sanhedrin, thus no rulings are considered without question, thus creating a Safek.

    You have chosen the position of the fringe minority to make a ruling, Menachem. Are you willing to sell out Am Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel based on such marginal interpretations?

    I suggest you read my comment above one more time. You apparantly missed the entire explanation for Otzar Beit Din that explained how the shmita Laws are legally followed in the Land, INCLUDING Gaza (until Sharon's pogrom left it Judenrein, of course).

    Thanks again, though, for sharing with us your curious views on this matter.

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  12. kahaneloyalist5/22/2006 9:14 AM

    Benai Yisael did in fact conquer Gaza check out Melachim I 5:4. Besides which once any part of Eretz Yisrael is conquered by Jews it cannever be given up even in a case of danger to life, because it is a Milchemet Mitzvah to conquer all of Eretz Yisrael, to not perform this is considered Avodah Zara according to the Rmaban Sefer HaMitzvos Mitzvah number four.

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  13. Another Infidel5/22/2006 9:19 AM

    MZ, this is really terrible.

    OT, since I haven't seen any posts from you on the current illegal immigrant amnesty scheme floated by W, I thought I would put this excellent post made on Dr. Pournelle's website which analyzes the BS being dished out (my apologies for using your blog to post this in advance, but patriotic American that you are, I thought you wouldn't mind):

    Subject: "pay a meaningful penalty"?

    Dr. Pournelle,

    When I called the White House comment line the other day, it was right after I had watched Senator John McCain defending the President's proposals made in Monday evening's speech. He echoed President Bush's comments and exegeted them a bit. His understanding and defense of "not amnesty" coincided very well with my understanding of the President's proposals, that is to say, Senator McCain's explanations left as much to be desired as President Bush's original words did.

    When I read back to the comment line operator the portion of the President's speech where he stated that illegal aliens who wanted to stay and pursue citizenship would have to "pay a meaningful penalty" and included the "penalty" the President proposed (and senator McCain repeated from the senate floor), I added the question:

    "If paying taxes, speaking English and working are 'a meaningful penalty' for entering the country illegally, evading taxes and using forged documents then what am /I/ being penalized for?"

    A gasp. Silence, then a nervous laugh that quickly transformed into a loud guffaw. "I never thought of it that way," she finally said.

    But everyone I have mentioned that to has resonated with my interpretation. If it's not amnesty, then these folks will be prosecuted /under the laws they have broken and punished according to the penalties for breaking *those* laws/, not some new "penalty" that is simply normal life for all citizens and legal residents of these United States. If they are *not* to be subject to the specific penalties for the specific laws they have broken, then the President's proposal /is/ amnesty and he and his defenders are at the very least (and in the most polite construction) being disingenuous.

    If a politician can't sell their proposal without outrigth baldfaced lies, then that proposal is morally bankrupt, and the person proposing it is... well, less than worthy of our trust.

    Oh, and the "back of the line" meme? Not going to resonate with Americans who have any spirit of fair play. "Waiting in line" inside, by the fire with a nice hot cuppa cocoa ("May I warm that up for you, Jose?") is not the same as waiting outside in the cold, patiently queueing up with other lawful aspirants.

    "Pay a meaningful penalty"?

    Even paying their back taxes is no "meaningful penalty" for all the laws they have broken. Heck, YOU (or any of us) avoid taxes for 8-10 years and see what kinds of penalties the IRS can levy... And I'll bet it wouldn't be just the amount of back taxes alone. Can anyone say, "Be living in a cardboard box under the bridge in no time"?

    "Pay a meaningful penalty"?

    Riiiight. DON'T pull the other one, Mr. President.

    (BTW, that same lil schtick has played pretty well with congresscritters' offices, too. Phones are wonderful things. So much better than emails, faxes or letters alone, although all of them together are better than any one of them singly, IMO.)

    David Needham

    http://www.thirdworldcounty.us/?p=2106

    P.S. from AI: there are some good posts on this on Polipundit.com, too.

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  14. The Zionist radicals who are trying to starve the Palestinian population always seem so shocked when they fight back. Desperate paople do desperate things.

    Regarding this absurd argument over the vegetables in the 7th year, well, this is exactly why the Zionist radicals need to make it a binational state. Menachem is right, the Rabbis are hypocrites and the land belongs to everybody...not just Jews.

    Arabs and Jews can live together, just take away the fanatical Jewish Supremacy and make it a binational state for ALL people - regardless of religion.

    Peace is possible, just give the persecuted Palestinians their rights and stop the crap about this 7th year cucumber, and that rabbi's ruling on gays, and this Rabbi's ruling against secular marriage, yada-yada-yada. It's all a bunch of bigoted, exclusionary garbage.

    Menachem seems to be the first liberal minded person to show up at this site in quite a long time. I hope to see more people like him comment at this Jew/Nazi site that are willing to speak out against Zionist policies of apartheid, and embrace freedom for all people!

    Expel the settlers from the Palestinian land, give the Palestinian people the right to return to their homes, take down the aparthied wall, empty the jails of Palestinian political prisoners held without cause, end the Jewish State's racism by changing the name from Israel back to Palestine, allow for a multi-national state of Muslims and Jews to share power and resources equally, make Jerusalem the unified capital of Palestine, and guess what? PEACE NOW!

    Zionism = Racism.

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  15. dana = crock of fecal matter.

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  16. Nanc, the sad thing is she seems to have a new friend. Perhaps our resident troll Dana and our new liberal visitor Menachem are, umm, together?

    -MZ

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  17. MZ,
    These vermin don't care who they attack and kill (a miracle that deaths didn't ensue)--children mean nothing to them nor does any prayer service other than a Muslim one.

    You might be interested in this one. As you probably know, Saudi funds hatred all around the world, especially with the textbooks they publish.

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  18. AOW, thanks for your comments about the vermin filth. I hope you are feeling better.

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  19. I love the way the "peace at all costs" movement words things.
    Here we have the meth-smoking Dana saying this pile of horse excrement: "Arabs and Jews can live together, just take away the fanatical Jewish Supremacy and make it a binational state for ALL people - regardless of religion.
    Peace is possible, just give the persecuted Palestinians their rights and stop the crap about this 7th year cucumber, and that rabbi's ruling on gays, and this Rabbi's ruling against secular marriage, yada-yada-yada. It's all a bunch of bigoted, exclusionary garbage."

    I wonder how a religion that was formed thousands of years before Islamo-satanism could be considered "bigoted" against the religion formed 3 or 4 millenia later? Isn't it the other way around.
    Muslim appologists like you Dana end up headless--you are just as filthy and infidelish as us.

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  20. You can't defend your position Florian, so all you can do is scream insults. I have mearly laid out the plan for peace, while all you can do is salivate over violence and inequality.

    As for MZ's accusation, no I am not Menachem's "gal". Believe it or not, there are a lot more of us out there than there are of you, so don't mislead yourself into thinking we're the only two liberals on the planet who get it.

    Then again, that's so typical of the rightwingnuts who only see the world in childishly simple terms.

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  21. Dana, my position is crystal-clear. The fact that you think that peace can be achievable while the Islamo-satanists still reside is purely laughable. Haven't you heard what Mahmoud Ahmedinejad wants to do to Israel? Jews had been in Israel for 3 millenia before the muzzies invaded, so given that fact who is occupying whom Dana? Your "plan" is too PC, and much too complicated for any muzzie who's ever stepped foot in a mosque. One group or the other has to go for peace. Given the fact that Jews and Isreali's don't partake in suicide bombings, televised decapitations, terrorist hijackings, massive rape of children, massive murder of innocents worldwide, massive persecutions of Christians, Hindus and Buddhists, and female mutulation--I would say that a world minus muslims would be very beneficial for PEACE!

    The fact that you claim religious Jews are preventing peace is like saying religious Muslims are preventing war.
    It's an Oxymoron if I've ever seen one, but I'm still here for the laughs Dana.

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  22. wow.

    a lot's happened here since i last commented. let's see if i can take it all in.

    first of all, dana, zionism isn't racism. israel is not an apartheid state. even as they scream for the dismantling of the state of israel, we tolerate our arab knesset members. until recently, the only democratically elected arabs of any parliament in the middle east, i might remind you (the "until recently" referring, of course, to our newly democratic neighbor, iraq).

    secondly, i do not disagree with these guys in their conclusions, only in their methods. the gaza disengagement was wrong, because it rewarded terror, and made our security situation more difficult. the method of its carrying out was also terrible, in the way that the evacuated residents are now being treated.

    however, the greater-israel argument of not giving up an inch is the wrong reason to hold on to these territories. there's going to eventually be peace, and it's not going to come without compromise.

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  23. the merry widow5/22/2006 7:33 PM

    Yes, but it's about time that the arab squatters started to compromise,for a change! It would be a surprise, but I won't hold my breathe or believe it. Sorry Dana, but wrong is wrong, even if the whole world is for you. If you are right and the whole world is against you, that doesn't change the right! Numbers don't count in the end, G*D does, and if 5 billion people are wrong, sorry charlie!

    tmw

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  24. Dana You Moron

    I will try the Mr Rodgers approach as you are a dullard.

    How did Arabs get to Israel in the first place . Can we say Colonialism of course we can ?
    The Arab invaders forced the Jews into living under a series of Jim Crowe like laws for 1400 hundred years. Can we say Jim Crowe ?
    When the Arabs weren't treating Jews to slavery they were robbing them via poll taxes ? Can we say polltaxes. Many times people who could not pay the exorbitant taxes were forced into slavery. Can we say Slavery? Good mendicant

    If this weren't bad enough the greedy blood thirsty, land thieving Sons of Allah would not allow Jews to repair their own twmples. The sons of Allah placed a Mosque on the holiest site of Judaism and forbid Jews from worshiping in the cave of Machpela. Can we say land robbers ?
    Good Mendicant .

    When all else failed the Sons of Allah could always be countedon for small scale Genocide and massacres. Can you say genocide ?

    Now how do a people with a 1400 year historical record of unparalled barbarism become the victims of people like Dana. Well as we have said before Dana is the gold standard of Morons.

    Take a bow Dana your stupidity has been recognized. Did you train to be this stupid or is this your naturl talent.

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  25. well, beak - she is in the running for troll of the year. she's faithful - i'll give her that.

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  26. flo said, "Dana, my position is crystal-clear."

    don't encourage her, flo, as clear is her favorite color.

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  27. kahaneloyalist5/23/2006 1:06 AM

    Menachem, the argument that peace is possible with the arabs shows a profound ignorance of both recent and ancient history. The last 30 years starting in Camp David have been a period of continous Israeli surrender and yet peace only seems further and further away. The fact that Arabs both Christian and Muslim have always persecuted Jews when they were able should give you a hint of what is to come.

    But let us address the Halachic issues involved in the territory of Eretz Yisrael, and the government of Eretz Yisrael. First of all the opinion which is accepted by the Shulchan Aruch and the majority of Poskim is that of the Ramban Sefer HaMitzvos Mitzvah number four: That all Jews are required to conquer every inch of Eretz Yisrael at all times regardless of their circumstances. To not perform this Mitzvah is Avodah Zara(idol worship) for which a Jew must give his life. The implications for surrendering land are obvious.
    The Shulchan Aruch HaRav volume six brings down that if a Jew gives up the land of other Jews to Goyim he is a Rodef and can and should be killed by anyone. This was written by the Alter Rebbe and is generally accepted Halacha. Chazon Ish ruled that if a Jew was so much as suspected of selling land in Eretz Yisrael to goyim for any reason they are to be put in Cherem (Sefer Kol Torah SheBaal Peh) The Lubavitcher Rebbe zt'l gave a Bracha to HaTzadik HaRav Binyamin Zeev Kahane zt'l h'yd that he should be succsesful in driving the Arabs out of Eretz Yisrael, as well as the Rebbe's well know psak then never under any circumstances may there even be discussion of cedeing land. Based upon the ruling in the Shulchan Aruch that if Goyim come to a Jewish town and demand tribute it is a requirment to go to war without mercy upon the enemy nation. Lastly the only Goyim who may live in Eretz Yisrael are those who have taken upon themselves the status of Ger Toshav, which includes a acceptence of the Sheva Mitzvos Benai Noach, which the Arabs have not accepted, so for this alone they must be driven out. To put it in perpective know what the Rambam wrote "If a Goy so much as strikes a Jew, he is deserving of death"

    Now that we have established the Halachos of Eretz Yisrael let us look at the rules of Jewish war.The laws of Jewish war are defined by the Rambam and the Rambam's definition is accepted by all. When you begin a war of choice it is permissable to spare the women and children thought you are required to wipe out the adult men. That is a war we choose to start because we wish to expand our borders outside of land promised to us by Hashem. Now the rules of war in a case of Milchemet Mitzvah which is a divinely commanded war, triggered in three circumstances.
    1.The war against Amalek(HaTzadik HaRav Mordechai Eliyahu shlita has ruled the "palestinians" have the status of Amalek in this generation)
    2.The Mitzvah to wipe out the Sheva Ha'amim and conquer Eretz Yisrael
    3.A defensive war(the "Palestinians" started the current round of fighting)
    Now what exactly are the Halachot of a Milchemet Mitzvah? In a Milchemet Mitzvah we spare no one, not the men the women or the children. Once the war has begun it does not end until we have victory, and we fight nations not individuals.


    Now on the issue of Jewish government. There is a common misconception among many Jews that Western Democracy is compatible with Judaism. This is not so, among Rishonim there are only two opinions on Jewish government. The first is that of the Ibn Ezra and the Abarbanel that a Jewish government pre-Meshiach is a weak Sanhedrin which appoints dictators as needed. Which is what happened in the time of the Shoftim. The second opinion is that of the Rambam and Sefer HaChinuch, who hold that a Monarch is to be appointed whenever there is a Jewish State, and a Navi is not needed nor must he be of David's line.
    A Jewish government may not have any Goyish influences or members. Nor may Goyim have any position of rank in the army, and a Jewish government only has the right to rule so long as they follow the Torah. It does not matter if a government is Democracticly elected a Jew never has the right to go agaisnt the Torah. The very essence of Democracy is anti-Jewish in that Democracy garnersa it's right to rule from the people choosing it, so whatever the people choose is good and right. Whereas the Torah comes from Hashem is unchanging and perfect and a government that follows the Torah cant be chosen by the people but must rather be chosen by Hashem or those who are greatest in Torah in this generation. Such a government has the right to rule for it garners its power from Hashem, that is why a Torah Monarchy is the only acceptable for of Govenrment. So yes the people have chosen a evil anti-Eretz Yisrael and anti-Torah govenrment and yet they still lack the right to do evil merely because they have been chosen by the people.

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  28. It's reprehensible the way Jewish life has no value to the "leaders" of Israel.

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  29. the war with the arabs, the entire war, for the past 100 years, is nothing but a historical anomaly. they're more of a nuisance than anything. compare this era to any previous era of jewish persecution and you'll see it's pretty lame, by any stanards. are the arabs worse than the spanish? are the arabs worse than the cossaks? are they worse than the nazis? we're at peace now with all these countries, why shouldn't we eventually be at peace with the arabs?

    A Jewish government may not have any Goyish influences or members. Nor may Goyim have any position of rank in the army

    solomon's government had goyish influences and members, and david's army had goyim in positions of rank.

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  30. kahaneloyalist5/23/2006 9:18 AM

    That is not true in the case of David, I suppose you are refering to Uri HaChiti but he was a Ger, so he was actually a Jew.

    I the case of Shlomo HaMelech it is unversally agreed that he made a mistake in his closeness to Goyim and even so everyone in his government was at least a Ger. The Gemara Sanhedrin addresses these issues check there.

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  31. Menachem, please give quantifiable reasons why you believe making land concessions and "good will gestures" to the moslems will bring about peace.

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  32. quantifiable reasons for land concessions as part of a peace agreement:

    peace with egypt, based on land concessions, has lasted 25 years.

    peace with palestine, based on overwhelming force, has been non-existant.

    when did i say anything about "good will gestures?" the only land concessions that are reasonable are those carried out in a larger framework of peace, as long as the arabs meet their expectations. we can't give anything away from free, certainly not as a "good will gesture."

    remember, my only arguemnt with you guys is in your whole "greater israel," stonewalling. no matter what borders we end up with, even if it's from the sea to the river (which it will not be), you'll always find a rabbi who'll define israel as something even larger. there are dey'ot that give israel borders stretching from the nile to the euphrates!

    but to give away land for nothing, and bring upon us an unneccesary security risk for no gain? never. don't accuse me of that. (and while you're at it, don't accuse me of shaking up with dana, either.)

    we need to take what we can get, and secure peace within whatever borders you can get.

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  33. i just noticed, MZ, that your location is listed as United States. you're not spewing hard-core right-wing militant beliefs without actually having served in the IDF, are you?

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  34. menachem - appeasement is hope that the alligator eats you last. israel should give up no land whatsoever and should take back that which is hers. period.

    madze is a warrior and would gladly serve in the idf if given the chance. he has great passion for his land and people.

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  35. Menachem, you certainly are a naive boy, aren't you.

    "Peace with Egypt"!!?? LOL!!! You can't be serious!! My, your head is buried in the sand.

    Regarding "Overwhelming force failing to bring peace to PALESTINE??!!", again - LOL!!! You really have been drinking the liberal Kool Aid, haven't you my utopian friend. I guess those "Peace Now" rallies must be doing a number on you. You need to learn what overwhelming force really means, Menachem, and while you're at it, educate yourself that there is no such country as "PALESTINE!" NEVER HAS BEEN!

    Your concessions, good will gestures, compromises, appeasements, retreats, or whatever the hell you want to call them, are good for just one thing: GETTING JEWS KILLED!

    Oh, and about the IDF - are you by any chance one of the criminals who helped expel Jews from Gaza or Samaria?

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  36. the merry widow5/23/2006 3:28 PM

    Menachem- G*D said from the "river of Egypt to the Euphrates" not me! So, I wouldn't sneer at that Rabbi. Oh, by the way, if G*D says HE's going to do it, it will be done!

    tmw

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  37. I agree with Menachem's willingness to give the Palestinians back their land and expel the Settler Nazis, but I am against his view that Israel should have separate borders with Palestine. We need a one-state solution that permits the Palestinians who were expelled in 1948 to return to their homes with their descendents.

    Peace means compromise, and Israel certainly has not been making equitable concessions to say the least. Expelling the settler nazis must be only one step in the path for true equality.

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  38. the merry widow5/23/2006 4:44 PM

    Dana- You are a hateful, foolish girl. Your blindness to reality makes you one with the DU or Daily Kos, therefor I know where you stand. I will ignore you in the future, nor will I read your lies.

    tmw

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  39. "Remember, my only arguemnt with you guys is in your whole greater israel, stonewalling."

    If you just look at the land's borders that are currently set with Jordan on the East and Lebanon on the North you can see the concessions that have been made with Greater Israel already. Beirut belongs to Israel, as does the East Bank of the Jordan - biblically speaking at least - but conceding even MORE land in any way West of the Jordan and South of Lebanon's borders will only get more Jews killed.

    Expelling moslems is not only good for the Jews, but think of how much better it would be for the vermin to be sent to their own rightful land, with their own people and their own laws and thjeir own religion.

    This is our land, Menachem, and conceding it to terrorist moslem filth would be a deadly, immoral, disgraceful act in every possible way. To the moslems as well as the Jews.

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  40. dana: you're asking for two things that contradict each other. how can you demand both a single state solution and the expulsion of the settlers? if there's only 1 state between the jordan and the medditeranean, and jews and arabs are democratic equals, then why should jews be expelled from one half to the other?

    needless to say, either one of your demands, if granted, would lead to the destruction of the jewish state. nobody's going to agree to that.

    "Peace with Egypt"!!?? LOL!!! You can't be serious!! My, your head is buried in the sand.

    i never said it was a perfect peace. they may have plenty of vitriol in their newspapers, but notice how their army hasn't attacked us since '73. syria, who we didn't make a land-for-peace exchange with, launched a war with us 9 years later (only 1 year after the begin-sadat deal).

    i'm not saying that the gaza disengagement was a good thing, but the concept of land-for-peace is a valid one.

    as for criminal acts, a soldier carrying out an order issued by a the democratically elected government isn't a criminal. i opposed the disengagement; i not only voted mafdal/NU, but i was active in their campaign. however, if i had been in the army at the time, and had been given the order, i would have carried it out. you have no right to call those soldiers criminals.

    merry widow: i was just accused of having my head stuck in the sand, but i'm here defending myself. why would you willingly stick your head in the sand? ignoring dana isn't the answer.

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  41. Menachem, you are certainly a study in contradictions. Nonetheless, I'm glad you are here participating.

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  42. the merry widow5/23/2006 7:43 PM

    Menachem- Ignoring Dana is so I don't lose my temper, talking with those who disagree is good, I have no problem with rational discourse. But since I am not paid to be Dana's counselor, why should I try to sort out her rantings? I will take Solomon's advice from Prov.12:15-16,The way of a fool is right in thier own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise. A fool's wrath is known at once, but a prudent man covers shame. KJV! I won't wrangle! As a widow with 2 teens, I can get all the wrangling I can stomach at home! Actually mine don't wrangle or argue that much, for which I am eternally grateful!
    Now, I don't agree that Israel should give more land, this partitioning of the land will force the citizens into isolated enclaves that can be picked off one at a time. I certainly believe P.M. Olmert is a Neville Chamberlain wannabe! The uprooting of the settlers from Gaza will be political suicide, this is beside the fact that I don't believe G*D is thrilled with the giving away that which was a gift from HIM! I tend to want to tread gently around HIM, but unfortunately there appears to be many in Israel who don't take HIM into account! Makes me want to bang my head against a wall, but that isn't useful! So, I pray for the peace of Jerusalem and for G*D's will to be done, and save myself headaches.

    tmw

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  43. tmw - dana has in the past been just a one-shot wonder and claims to be half jewish - what i want to know is if it's the top or bottom. you will not be able to ignore her hard as you try so just go with it.

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  44. Merry Widow, you are spot on! Nicely done.

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  45. You are correct, nanc. She has indeed asserted to be "half" Jewish. Does that mean she self-loathes half of herself? Well, as far as the vermin are concerned, killing half a Jew will stil score you 70 virgins.

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  46. Menachem, as a delusioned "Land for Peace" advocate, why would you vote for Mafdal/NU when Elon's platform is expelling the moslems from Eretz Israel? I am beginning to suspect insencerity in your responses. Look, I don't mind if you are a leftist who is here to argue the merits of appeasement, but I don't appreciate pot stirring just for the sake of playing a game with those of us who mean what we say.

    Please help me understand how you are as you say: a nationalist who opposed the Gaza expulsion, but doesn't believe Gaza is part of Eretz Israel and encourages land concessions for peace, but votes for Mafdal, but opposes expelling the moslems and is anti-Greater Israel advocacy.

    It just doesn't add up. I suspect you are just jerking our chain, Menachem.

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  47. kahaneloyalist5/23/2006 10:20 PM

    MZ, it is important to understand the diffenerce between the Danas and menachems of the world.

    Dana is a fringe nut who votes for Hadash(Israeli Communist Party). Truly believes that all the problems in the world are the fault of a mythical Religious Right and hates religion in all forms especially the Torah. She is so crazy no one cares what she says. She is annoying but thats it.

    Menachem is a far more dangerous character. He in many ways is Middle Israel. He is a racist in that he hates Arabs simply because they are Arabs. He doesnt hate Judaism and is even somewhat traditional. Though he is very hostile towards the Rabbanim especially those who have power. He would rather not give up any part of Eretz Yisrael but he feels its necessary. He would like to expell the Arabs but he is too afraid of the Goyim to really support it instead he supports expelling Jews for peace. He claims Democracy is a reason to override the Torah. All in all he is a middle of the road average Israeli. The truly dangerous in that their ideas while just as dangerous as those of the so-called far left dont sound quote as insane and evil.

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  48. I agree with your statement that he is more dangerous than leftwing extremist Dana, if in fact his story adds up to be true. I am more than a little doubtful that our friend Menachem has been completely honest with us. Hopefully he'll either clear up the inconsistencies, or admit he was caught playing a disengenuous little game.

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  49. you're right, benny elon's platform was a little too right wing for me. in my mind, i was voting for mafdal, who just happened to be attatched to NU. crazy, i know, but all in all they represented the closest thing to my beliefs. i wasn't going to vote kadima, even if i am in favor of land for peace in principal, because kadima's proposals are crazy, and want nothing in return. likud was just too corrupt in my mind to vote for, but in retrospect, i probably should have voted for them.

    kahaneloyalist: i actually agreed with most of what you wrote about me, with a few exceptions:
    I'm religious, not just traditional; i even spent 3 years in yeshiva before the army. it's true, lately i've been pretty hostile towards rabbonim, mostly because of all the scandals, but also because, unlike you guys, i don't think politics should be settled by rabbis, and they should stick to paskening halachik shaylos, and leave these decisions to politicians, generals, and most importantly, voters.

    i wouldn't really like to expell the arabs. i would prefer drawing borders that compliment the current situation. what's the point in drawing borders that will include 5 million more arabs? it's funny how close you and dana are to each other. i think i'm the only one here that wants 2 states.

    everything else you wrote there looks pretty good to me, except for the whole evil/menace to society part.

    MZ: i've been completely honest here. i joined the army in march '03, and served in an infantry unit. before that, i volunteered full time (5 eight hour shifts a week) as an EMT on ambulances in kfar saba and jerusalem.

    i came to my beliefs slowly and painfully, with much thought, not sitting in a comfortable home in the US telling israelis to risk their own lives to do what i think they should do.

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  50. Menachem, am I to understand that you are opposed to diaspora Jews giving support or criticism of Israel? If my views were in line with yours would you still want to stifle my right to express my opinions?

    I know my friends in Israel have warned me that it is dangerous to express opinions in Israel that are rightwing, as the government has a nasty habit of rounding up those who think like I do.

    I know in Israel the Kach Party is illegal because people like yourself have determined that views in favor of Greater Israel and an observant Jewish State must be silenced.

    Now, you are even seeking to silence all Land of Israel Jews in the diaspora as well? You want even blogs like this one to be shut down since we advocate policies you are afraid of?

    Menachem, KL was right: your kind is more dangerous than Dana. She at least comes here and is willing to state her views clearly and without contradictions. She is also not suggesting that this site should be silenced because diaspora Jewry has no right to express dissent.

    Regarding Iran, am I to assume criticizing them is wrong because I'm not currently living there? France? Or, should I just say the world is none of my damn business and put my head in the sand?

    Menachem, what right do you have to say who is allowed to have an opinion and who isn't? You are a terrible hypocrite, for you want to shut up the rabbinate, shut up the diaspora, and shut up all those, Jews and gentiles alike, who think differently than you.

    Well, you won't succeed in your desire to silence me or anyone else who has opinions you are scared of. We are going to eventually outnumber you, we will eventually become the leaders of Israel you'll have to live under, and then you'll be that dissenting liberal minority voice that wants to give away "Land for Peace" and other various cowering policies of appeasement, and people like me and Kahaneloyalist will be able to decide if people like you have the right to express an opinion or not. Fortunately for you, we are not looking to cut off your right to speak your mind.

    I hope you think about that as you advocate censorship of the opposition, Menachem. Be they in The Land today or not, all Jews have a right to an opinion of Israel, even those who express views you can't handle.

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  51. Menachem, the above comment was originally posted on the "IDF Chief" thread. There you can find the other responses to this discussion, which I think you'll find very interesting.

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  52. you have a right to an opinion. you do not have a right to expect your opinions to matter. you certainly do not have the right to call me a criminal for carrying out my duty to my nation.

    i find it curious that a rabid zionist like you would consider it so important to pursue all these extreme right-wing greater israel agendas, but not find it important enough to make aliya. i understand that it's quite common, that many american jews have very strong opinions on israel, but i just don't understand it.

    eretz yisrael belongs to every jew. it's god's gift to us. but you need to make a kinyan on it to claim it. if you haven't made a kinyan, then it's not yours. why are you so considered with giving away a parcel of land here or there if israel simply isn't important enough for you to actually live here? are you that concerned for your vacation home?

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  53. Menachem, you have proved my point. You are saying clearly that Jews in the diaspora are not permitted to hold rigthtwing views. This is curious, as you seem to be claiming to have the right to decide who thinks what, when and where. What was done to the Jews in Gaza and Amona was indeed a crime. I as a Jew will spit venom at anyone, anywhere in the world who commits violent crimes against Jews and ethnically cleanses them from their homes. It is only WORSE to do so in Eretz Israel.

    If you participated in any of this I spit on you. No Jew should obey an order to launch a pogrom against Jewish civilians.

    If in America, President Bush launched a pogrom against brooklyn. demolishing the homes of all the Jews, beating them, and leaving them to rot in the middle of South Dakota, would you have an opinion?

    Bet your self-rightous ass you would.

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  54. if i say this:
    you have a right to an opinion.

    how do you say this?:
    You are saying clearly that Jews in the diaspora are not permitted to hold rigthtwing views.

    you can have all the views you want!

    i, thank god, was not ordered to evacuate any jew from their homes. but i would have. maintaining the integrity of the IDF is more important than where somebody lives. i would have executed my democratic right, and voted against any government that did it, but i would have carried out my orders. and i stand with the majority of the dati leumi community when i say that. i was in a beynish machlaka, and our mem mem asked us straight out how we would react if we were ordered to do something like that. 7 guys out of all of us said that they would refuse. after a lengthy discussion, 4 of them reversed themselves, and agreed to carry out any orders given. (all 35 of us, however, did request not to ever be put in that situation.)

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  55. if you need help understanding that:

    beynish= slang for ben yeshiva
    machlaka= platoon
    mem mem= "mefaked machlaka," or, commander of the platoon. in this case, a liutenant.

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  56. I respect how hard it would be if in that position, Menachem. What I believe is that those who said no were doing something great, while those who opposed but still accepted it as a duty are "only following orders".

    Unfortunately, many bad things have happened to the Jews throughout history by people who were "only following orders".

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  57. you can compare someone being evicted from his home to someone exterminated ina concentration camp? i don't appreciate your veiled holocaust references.

    nations swap land all the time. in the process, people get kicked out, forced to move, "resettled," whatever. it's not a crime against humanity. it's a terrible thing, sure. but i'm not sure if comparing israeli soldiers to nazis is a greater insult to holocaust survivors, or to the IDF itself. whatever it is, it's a compliment to the SS. and i think you should stop.

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  58. Hmmm, you seem to be feeling guilty about this. No, ethnic cleansing and deportation is not extermination, so if you got the impression I was saying one is equal to the other you misunderstood. That said, ethnically cleansing Jews from their homes, bulldozing their communities and leaving them to rot homeless and hungry is no badge of honor. Pogroms may not be death camps, but they don't win you a whole lot of points with those innocent civilians who were rounded up and shipped off to DP camps, er, tent cities.

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Thank you for commenting. Respectful debate and dissent are welcomed. MZ reserves the right to censor for any reason without explanation.