YNet News - Sides reach agreement regarding funds for families with five or more children, but disagreements remain on religion and state issue, as well as on jobs waiting for UTJ MKs should they join the government.There is no credible religious justification for aiding and abetting those who openly seek the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Judea and Samaria. The Hareidi have disgraced themselves as enablers to the enemies of the Jewish people, just as the corrupt Temple priesthood did in the years preceding the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash. In short, they are heretics.
Progress was made Thursday in coalition talks between United Torah Judaism and Kadima, as the utra-orthodox party sealed a funding deal for large families. The sides reached an agreement to increase state allowances for large families, but disagreements remain on issues pertaining to religion and UTJ positions in the government.
-MZ
Religion is inherently corrupt.
ReplyDeleteYeah dana, I understand why you believe this, since that's all you see at the leftist worship services!
ReplyDeleteYes, and the lack of religion works so well, like the French revolution were hundreds of thousands were killed in the name of "reason" because the Communist Regimes only killed one hundred million people and the USSR was famous for the amazing level of corruption they managed. I guess those were flukes rather then a pattern.
ReplyDeleteFunny, but doesn't Dana seem awfully apologetic towards the moslem vermin, but lashes out at "religion" when it involves Jews or Christians? Dana, you are a leftist puppet. Think for yourself, sweety.
ReplyDeletemadze - about florian at beak's - he thought you were talking about the john brown idiot! not jeff bargholz - he had no way of knowing. flo's one of the good guys.
ReplyDeleteDana
ReplyDeletePoliticians and not religion is the corrupting factor. Then again as you worship at the altar of PC you are not equiped for rational thought.
I don't think all ultra religious jews are like that. It's just the Netura Karta and the politicians who will do anything for power and money.
ReplyDeleteAlex- Thanks for the history, American Christians who really do love G*D's chosen people want and need to know what is going on. It does fit with the Syrian-Greek culture to meddle in religious affairs to thier own advantage. I have also believed that this giving up of land that G*D promised Abraham is not likely to sit well with HIM. Not only that, but going to the worst places might just bring some light and fresh air to clear minds of the corruption of this age. Not an easy task though! I do have a problem with those who worship a human(happens in Christian circles enough) and thier interpretation rather than the ONE who wrote it! Opens the door to mis-interpretation which can lead to grave error.
ReplyDeletetmw
Alex, great post. I agree with you that the Hareidi are behaving like Saduccees, but I think the comparison of Essenes to the Settlers is a bit off.
ReplyDeleteThe Essenes/Qumronite community was not an outreach group at all, rather they were very severe isolationists and mystics. They observed very different dietary laws and laws of purity, and established a very brutal social hierarchy.
They actually had much in common with the Hareidi of today, in that they rejected all who didn't live by their rigid social order. They also didn't work, much like the Hareidi, and were fervently apocolyptic, believing the End was near and that they would be the only ones who would qualify for the World to Come.
In that sense, the Hareidi are combining the corruption of the Sadducees with the mystical, isolationist inmtolerance of the Essenes. Some combination, huh?
The ancient ones most reflective of the Settlers were the Pharisees, who were the predecessors of the Rabbis and all Rabbinic driven Judaism. They were the ones who passed down the traditions of the Oral Law, led by great men like Hillel and Shammai, which was later reocorded in the Mishnah in 200CE.
I very much agree with your formula for fixing the ills of Israeli society, Alex. Outreach, outreach, and more outreach is the answer! Chabad has the right formula, and now it's time for the rest of the observant world to follow suit.
-MZ
The Charedim in general are good righteous Jews, but they follow the words of their Rabbnim strictly, as they should. But, as the Vilna Gaon warned, in the time right before Mashiach the eyes of some of the Tzadikim will be blinded. Tragically the Tzadikim who have been blinded are the Charedei leaders.
ReplyDeleteThank you for making that point, KL. The Hareidim are indeed on the whole very good people who live a pius, strictly observant life.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as you said, they are very misguided and blinded, to say the least.
prima donna bonehead dana said:
ReplyDelete"Religion is inherently corrupt."
for once i agree with her. but she cannot make the same statement about faith and the two are extremely different.
maybe we're making SOME headway.
Nanc, maybe YOU are making some headway. I didn't think a robot like you could think for yourself at all. Maybe there is hope for you, yet.
ReplyDeletethat's where you're wrong, i cannot contain my hope! i'm wealthy with it - want some?
ReplyDeleteGo, Nanc! Since our hope is not of this world, it transcends it. Therefor it springs eternally new and fresh! It will never run out. Hope inspite of the world, how radical!
ReplyDeletetmw
LQ”Y
ReplyDeleteShalom,
Alex here from home:
I think I correctly intimated that the Essene/ Qumron folks were not outreach folks, when I said that we should "learn from their history" and “let us not go into the non-populated areas of the Negev”. I was noting similarities. And at the same time, I was noting lessons of the past. We need to be outreach folks this time. But instead, they hid out in the caves, like the Yishuvnicks are doing today. I understand why they are doing this. Because they suspect it is a lost cause. And it may be. But when they started to pro-actively kick people out of their homes, this changed the equation.
In terms of them being an “overly” strict, isolationist and mystical group... We need to put this in proper context. I think this is incorrect, as a generalization, after one considers recent discoveries. They were a reactionary group of Priests, from the line of Priests DESIGNATED by King David himself, to run the Temple (see Maccabbees II for history). When in the second century BCE, the Hellenists illegally murdered, usurped and installed the Priestly office with Priests from a different line (of their influence), our Pharisaic Hasmonian heroes did nothing to correct this flaw, when they eventually won the war a few years later. In fact, they utilized this to their advantage to continue the mistake. This, in my humble assessment was a big mistake. In terms of the dietary laws and the laws of purity, one really needs to take them in the light of who they were.
They were the keepers of the Ark of the Covenant, incense and oil. They were the guys who went into the Holy of Holy's with chains on their legs. Of course they lived a different, stricter life of ritual purity. No one can deny that the Kohanim lived a much stricter life than mainstream, in all areas of their lives. Also, we know they didn't own land. So I think your idea, that they didn't work is not fair, nor is it in context. Because they were not supposed to work IN THAT WAY. They worked differently, through the service of HaShem.
On the contrary (in reality), once they moved to the desert, they became the sole financiers and guarantors of their own subsistence, working the fields for their bread. I have personally examined their caves, many of which have not been announced to the public. Even the ones where the incense was found (ie: and verified as the real deal by Hebrew U). This is no easy area to live in. And to clarify, the ancient Kohanim were not granted any land, and were purposely made to do service and study all day, as you noted, and to live off terumah. So while I may be a staunch Zionist, I do see a benefit to the concept of a FEW of our best... learning all day. I don’t know that these ideas are mutually exclusive.
Does that mean that every Hareidi kid can just exempt himself from the Army? H- NO! There should be a very small quota. Only the best in the country, those who past a rigorous series of tests, should be “mutar”. I can agree with you that the current situation is untenable.
Shabboth Shalom
Alex
LQ"Y
ReplyDeleteSorry, I should have said that many of the Yishuvnicks went out to the Yeshuvim in the pioneering spirit... not because they didn't believe in outreach. I mis-wrote on that one. But as we get kicked out, this is the best way to reverse the situation. This is what I meant. Outreach will actually help our settlement efforts. Moving into the Negev does nothing for Yeshuvim, in my humble opinion. I don't see the impact of moving there.
Shabbath Shalom
Alex
Alex, a correction on one important point you made: the Hasmoneans were not Pharisees, nor were they friends of the Pharisees. The Pharisees rejected the hellenized ways of the Hasmoneans and were persecuted for it. They were not an extention of the corruption, rather they were a spiritual force against it.
ReplyDeleteThe Essenes are still not fully understood, but they were indeed apocolyptic, isolationist mystics who withdrew from all society. Whether or not they were Kohanim I cannot confirm or deny, but I do know they became an extinct sect shortly after the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash.
We are all Pharisees today, and should not be confused into thinking that any of the other sects were "true Judaism". They were among many, many competing off-shoots in an era when Judaism was under attack from within and without.
Our lesson whould be to strengthen from within what is true to our laws and traditions, as the Pharisees and later the Rabbis advised, and not vere too far to the left or to the right of the path of Torah, which was the fatal flaw of the other denominations of that time - including the Essenes.
Good Shabbos, and time for a scotch!
Mad Zionist...
ReplyDeleteYou know I love you!
If you read a book by the Orthodox Rabbi Harvey Falk called "Jesus the Pharisee", you will see proof from the Gamara that being an Essene, which IS mentioned in the Gamara (as "Senee" or cave dweller), and is further associated with the ancient Chasidim (not the modern ones), was not mutually exclusive of being a Pharisee. In other words, many members of different groups simultaneously held association with the more secretive Essenes, who were in charge of hiding Holy stuff (wink wink). By studying the language of how different Ribbis are called (ie: title in the Mishna and Gamara), he deduces with certainty, the identity of certain Ribbi personalities (known to most students of the Gamara) as these cave dwellers (senes). Regarding your assertion that the Hasmonians were not Pharisaic, I think this is a bit complicated. That proto-Pharasaic groups existed at the time of the Maccabees can be proven by studying the dead sea scroll known as MMT. You may be technically right. They may not have yet been called Pharisee. However, MMT proves that the things being said in our Gamara, that are attributed to our Pharasaic ancestors, were most certainly around (in content) at the time of the Hasmonians (250bce and change). And seeing as we all celebrate Chanukah with such ferver, one be hard pressed not to see a very strong connnection (at the least) with the Hasmonians.
Either way, I think the Essenes today are misunderstood by most modern scholars, and many times confused with other groups (associates from many other groups that surely frequented these areas). One thing is for sure though, the caves I examined, is the exact location where the Annointing oil (one sealed) and the incense were found. Whoever these people were, they were clearly the keeper of the keys and apparently made a strong point of hiding away this stuff (or knowing where it was) for the future. If it was not for them, I doubt we would have it today. I think they also found ashes of the red hefer there too, but I forget.
But either way, THE ARAVIM must go. Unless they decide to follow the Noahide Laws, which includes recognizing the Jews as the official counsel of their religious decisions. Also, one of the Noahide laws talks about no bloodshed, the last time I checked.
Shabbath Shalom
Alex
Sorry. I meant to say BEFORE the time of the Hasmonians above, (Hasmonian was 150ish BCE). But the point still stands with MMT.
ReplyDeleteGood Shabbath all!
ReplyDeletetmw
Thanks, tmw! Good Shabbos!
ReplyDeletegood shabbos, madze. i have a new post up at longrange i believe you may be interested in. shalom.
ReplyDeletei would like to respectfully disagree with you on atheism, j.b. i've had plenty of atheists in my life and they've not compared in hatred to the leftists in my life.
ReplyDeletei've been more condemned by my irish catholic relatives (aplenty) than i ever have been by any athiests i've known.
you know i have the utmost respect for you and feel a kinship to you, but dana is not good enough to be an athiest.
we all serve A god, it's THE G-d we must keep in mind. athiests have much more faith than i would be able to muster in their beliefs and i've found them to have more scruples than myself on a number of occasions.
this statement was made after a day of careful thought as i'd not offhandedly come to these conclusions. i pray you'd not hold this against me as i feel you are one of the most passionate people i've come across. and passion is what it's all about.
i'm confident you'd correct me when you'd find me in error and it would be welcome although stinging and i hate that at my age.
Nanc- You're right, I have run into some extremely scrupulous athiests. But that is thier problem, they think thier good works will get them into heaven. I have a neighbor who is the kindest most generous and merciful person I've ever known. His wife became a Christian about 4 yrs. ago, now his hostility to Christianity is starting to fade. He even listens to some Christian music! But that very virtuous behavior is a roadblock to belief. I think it's more likely the leftist philosophy that is hate! My neighbor is very conservative!
ReplyDeleteNow I think Beaker is more agnostic, but he is also more conservative, therefor he shows more compassion than say a jobro or mad weazl! IMHO!
tmw
well, on that note i agree. i believe EVERYBODY believes in a higher power - some just don't like to call it G-d. i always ask my kids, "who's your G-d?", when they are left wanting. my firm belief is we all serve "a" god - some just serve the little "g". i'm glad you came back and responded to my post.
ReplyDeleteMad Zionist: thanks, first and foremsot for leaving your comment on my blog. As I've been reading yours just now I've come across so many interesting things. I'm very impressed with your writing and your knowledge of Judaism. I don't happen to be religious and am obviously missing out on a lot. Hope you had a great bondfire on the Lag,
ReplyDeleteGreg.
p.s. I love your logo. I wanted to get one like that but couldn't find it so I went with the next best...Betar!
ReplyDelete