Deconstructing a Leftist

Nothing gets a leftist more hysterical than engaging him intelligently and politely in debate. To reveal how flawed their positions really are is much like peeling an onion, layer by layer, until nothing is left but the stench and the tears.

Below is one of two running discussions I've had over at Hear O' Israel between myself and a European leftist by the name of Gert. Many of you may already be familiar with Gert, as he has had many hostile run-ins with others in this blogging community the past year, most notably with Beak and Freedomnow, and his site is listed on my blogroll as "Marxist Treif".

Gert's signature characteristic is his unofficial title as "King of the Ad-hominem", as anytime he is challenged by an opposing view he immediately becomes hysterical and starts running off endless streams of personal insults, childish name-calling, and obscenity-laced slurs dripping with anti-Semitism.

Quite honestly, while I found his raging over the slightest of provocations to be (unintentionally) hilarious, I was greatly disappointed that he couldn't have provided a better quality of debate than he did. I enjoy a good challenge, and find lively debate to be very rewarding and educational.

Then again, he is a leftist so totalitarian fantasy is always brewing just beneath the surface. Read the discussions below and you'll see what I mean. I warn you, though, it was a very ugly and one sided debate, so if you don't have the stomach to watch a Euro-liberal get repeatedly depantsed in public than don't go any further.

From the post original post at Hear O' Israel:

Israeli Arabs: Enemy from Within

Mad Zionist said...

Greg, I think what this reveals is that there is no distinction between "Palestinian" and moslem. Whether they live inside the Green Line or out, it is the same enemy doing the same things for the same reasons.

6:20 AM

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Gert said...

What really amazes me about you guys is that you're all convinced of Israel's right to exist (as am I), yet feel this deep need to use arguments that really are non-issues, in particular the 'issue' of the 'fakestinians'.

No serious Jewish, Israeli or other historian or historiographer considers the existence of the Palestinians an issue worthy of debate, not then, not now. Crocs like "From Time Immemorial" have been conclusively shown to be no more than opportunistic hoaxes, belonging in the same filing cabinet as "The protocols of the elders of Zion", the trashcan that is. But I guess you people know better than a small army of peer-reviewed, respected and highly reputable professional scholars...

Who is this Johan Van Leers guy [reference from Kahane Loyalist comment -MZ]? He's so illustrious that even extensive search engine searching doesn't yield anything...

7:34 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Gert, if I can provide confirmation from the "Palestinian" side itself that the whole "Palestinian" nationality business is a ruse would that be enough to convince you of that fact?

9:10 PM

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Gert said...

MZ:

"Gert, if I can provide confirmation from the "Palestinian" side itself that the whole "Palestinian" nationality business is a ruse would that be enough to convince you of that fact?"

Show me this evidence. Don't start putting up conditions before you show your hand.

10:47 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Gert requested: Show me this evidence. Don't start putting up conditions before you show your hand.

Happy to provide this information for you, Gert.

March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Glad to help you stay informed, Gert.

All the best,

-MZ

11:30 PM

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Gert said...

MZ:

Ah, I could have known that the infamous Trouw quote was marching towards this thread with ill-deserved confidence. This quote, which is open to interpretation anyway, is bandied around by Palestinian-deniers the world over as some kind of "evidence". By the way, "Zahir Muhsein" gets about 553 results in Google, that's how famous he actually is...

So, lemmesee, so far we've got one quote in that highly reputable scholarly publication and one guy's word that the Palestinians are a Nazi fabrication. That don't impress me much...

Why don't you try this for size: on how early Zionists approached the 'Arab question'. Don't forget to read the references...

You and KL (and to some extent Greg and of course "Mr zero clue" Cuntenstein) are simply trying to fight a rearguard fight that was lost a long, long time ago. With no evidence apart from some hearsay and a few measly quotes, you're trying to uproot an enormous body of evidence that's been around since Zionism started to organise itself. Apart from some new arrivals in Israel (usually right-wing American Jews and quite a few Kahane supporters), some non-Israeli Jews (usually Americans too) and a plethora of non-Jewish "Israel Firsters", most of which are influenced by the "From Time Immemorial" school of "thought", no serious person accepts the 'empty Palestine' croc, or its derivative 'there are no Palestinians', as anything remotely near valid.

The whole 'there are no Palestinians' non-issue is very similar to any other conspiracy theory: a variety of sub-theories, often internally contradictory, gets called into life in a desperate attempt to prove something that simply isn't true.

MZ, it doesn't come as a surprise to me you also believe in this: after all you need a rationale to justify your expulsion fantasies. And what better excuse than to claim 'they don't really exist anyway'...

5:24 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Gert,

While I aprreciate you took the time to google the quote I provided that proved the "Palestinian" people are a facade, you still failed to in any way answer why it is you would claim there is such a thing as an arab "Palestinian" despite the fact that they themselves acknowledge it is only a tactic to destroy Israel.

You are welcome to use "because I said so" as a response to my facts, but it certainly won't impress those who haven't fully formed their opinions yet.

If you can do a better job refuting my proof than, please, by all means, go about doing it, or else I will politely consider this debate closed and accept the fact that you are basing your views on something other than objectivity.

All the best,

MZ

6:54 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Oh, and by the way, Gert, please don't construe the fact that I have demonstrated the lack of legitimacy of this "Palestinian" people to mean that there is not a moslem population problem. After all, just because the "Palestine" canard is a proxy doesn't mean that there are not real people there who want Israel to be eliminated. I think you know how I believe these people should be dealt with by now, right, Gert?

Anyway, just wanted to make sure we got that possible confusion cleared up.

Take care,

MZ

10:51 PM

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Gert said...

MZ:

The "quote I provided that proved the "Palestinian" people are a facade" isn't even serious evidence, let alone proof. You don't understand the meaning of empirical evidence because you don't need it. For you belief systems suffice. And your belief system (as well as KZ's, to some extent also Greg's and certainly Beaky's), is based on not much more than hatred for Muslims, whether they be Palestinian or other. It's also based on archaic and opportunistic interpretations of Judaism. In that sense you're as guilty as the Islamists you denounce (except you extrapolate Radical Islam to all followers of Islam).

"If you can do a better job refuting my proof than [...]": you have not refuted one iota of what I wrote, you have not even dismissed it: you have simply ignored it, like you will anything that doesn't fit in your narrow, religio-fascist doctrine. In this, as a Jew, you stand fairly alone. Good luck: your wet dream fantasies will never come true but some of your opponents will use your case to show exactly how belligerent and close minded some people can be, in your case a fanatical Jew, frankly as bad as those you wish to destroy (except you want to destroy a whole lot more, including quite clearly also modern Israel). Well, let the worst man win...

And from your latest blurb: "I think you know how I believe these people should be dealt with by now, right, Gert?"

Yes, I do. Expulsion (or so you claim) but that won't be good enough for you. You are indeed as bad as those you detest...

11:03 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Gert, your long-winded ad-hominem was most unfortunate. No matter how many times you close your eyes, cover your ears, and scream "religio-fascist!" it won't cover for your conspicuous lack of substantive responses.

I did note that you reject the historical existence of a Jewish nation in Israel. You do realize that only the most rabid of anti-semites believe such a grossly incorrect view of history, right?

Again, perhaps you simply misspoke out of frustration and will choose to express regret for making such an embarassingly false accusation.

Take care,

-MZ

12:28AM

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Gert said...

MZ:

"I did note that you reject the historical existence of a Jewish nation in Israel"

You're doing more selective reading. What I pointed out is that the notion of Biblical Eretz Israel simply cannot be compared to the modern notion of the Nation State of Israel, because the concept of the Nation State is very recent. You hark back x,000s of years, then skip straight to modern History, as if nothing happened in between. No doubt your notion of Eretz Israel stretches far beyond its current boundaries into neighbouring territories.

The Assyrian Empire, starting at about 1,400 BC once stretched across most of what is now the modern ME. Maybe we should give the whole lot back to them (e.g. the Iraqis who consider themselves their descendants)? No, I didn't think so either.

Empires and kingdoms in antiquity came and went, much as more modern European empires did. Some more on that and the Palestinians here

Keep your veiled charge of anti-Semitism: you won't silence me that easily.

6:23 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Gert,

Not sure what you mean by selective reading since your words are what I read. At least it appears that you are attempting now to backtrack on your original statement that Israel was never a Jewish nation before, which is wise on your part.

Regarding history being inconsequential if it was "x-1000" years ago, well the same people who ruled that land then still are alive today claiming it now. It seems to be a most inconvenient truth for you that this is the case.

Please note, the Jews have never stopped claiming this land and never will. The moslems you theatrically refer to as "Palestinian" for political effect have never had a nation of their own in Israel (and never wanted one, either) until after it was returned to Jewish control. The reasons for that I have made very clear already.

The problem for you and others like you, Gert, is the continued existence of the Jew.

By our very survival as a people we are evidence of the only historic and present claim to the Land of Israel that exists with any validity. We are the thorn in the militant secular effort to abolish organized religion because we are a living breathing evidence of religious history (whether we practice Jewish Law as a whole or not) that really did exist in antiquity, and, lastly, we are over 3,000 years of separatism that flies in the face of the collectivists who seek to homogenize all people of the world into a single, leftist creed and religion.

I'm sorry, Gert, but I just can't apologize for my existence as the nemesis to your dreams of historical revisionism and social engineering.

Be well,

-MZ

7:03 PM

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Gert said...

MZ:

I won't comment on anything from your latest comment, as there's nothing new or worthwhile, apart from these two points:

"The problem for you and others like you, Gert, is the continued existence of the Jew."

Well, sooner or later you were going to say something like this and I'm very surprised it hasn't happened earlier. Clearly, those who support Israel and abhor anti-Semitism must be seen as "having a problem with the continued existence of Jews", unless they keep any rational criticism they might have regarding certain aspects of Israel's policies in the occupied territories completely to themselves. There must be hordes and hordes of enemies of Israel out there, wherever you look...

It isn't me that "[has] a problem with the continued existence of Jews", you however do have a clearly stated problem with the existence of Muslims. Role-reversal isn't going to get you out of this.

"3,000 years of separatism that flies in the face of the collectivists who seek to homogenize all people of the world into a single, leftist creed and religion."

I just love that term: "collectivism". Old, obsolete, inaccurate to the point of practically being meaningless and bandied around by those who still believe it's the 'reds under their beds' that are the real threat. Newsflash: Communism is over...

Those like me who support the principles of Liberal Democracy have no intention to "homogenise all people of the world", quite the opposite, as Liberal Democracy (which completely transcends notions of 'left' or 'right') offers protection to all colours, creeds, religions, ethnic origins or other denominations. Perfect it ain't but it's the best we've got...

What a terrible shame that modern Israel also upholds these same Liberal Democratic values... (to be clear: no, it ISN'T).

9:29 PM

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Mad Zionist said...

Actually, Gert, you just nailed yourself.

Those like me who support the principles of Liberal Democracy have no intention to "homogenise all people of the world".

Good, than we agree that Israel is not to be for all people in one homogenized mish-mosh of moslems and Jews. Since collectivism is dead, as a "liberal democrat" it's nice to know you believe that the one culture, religion and people that must be permitted to possess Israel is the Jewish one; that a multi-culture homogeny in the Land is a tragic error, and to succeed as a nation Israel must prevent it at all costs.

Of course, Israel also can be kind to the others who don't belong to their culture by helping them out the door as quickly as possible so that they may enjoy their own creed in their own land.

Nice to see we have so much in common!

-MZ

10:09 PM

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Greg said...

Folks, folks...I've long lost the thread of this argument. Gert, you've done what I suggested you not do: resert to insults. I mean, what's this whole thing here for? Insulting people to try and make yourself feel better? People who are sure of themselves are not easily insulted and tend to turn it back on you. That's what happened here. Did you achieve anything?-No.

10:56 PM

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DING -DING!

The referee has stopped the fight. The winner, by knockout, and still undefeated against all crazed, foaming leftwing challenges, the MAD ZIONIST!!

One more thing. The debate beating Gert took over at this thread of Hear O'Israel may have even went worse for him than the above one did. Read with great caution.

-MZ