So much goodwill being spread from der Fuhrer Olmert; unless you are a Jew that is...
Another goodwill gesture to the Palestinian Authority: Israel will release 250 Fatah prisoners in honor of the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha which will take place at the beginning of December, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced Monday during a meeting with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in Jerusalem.
Israeli officials clarified that the gesture will include the release of prisoners who were involved in terror but belong to the moderate camp, and are not members of Hamas or the Islamic Jihad.
The release is part of Israel's effort to encourage the moderate forces and prove that such gestures can only be reached by taking the road of peace.
All the prisoners slated to be freed will be forced to sign a commitment that they would not return to terrorism.
Of course, since all the jihadis must promise Ehud to never do anymore terrorism ever again we all can rest easy. Good work keeping the Jewish people safe once again, Mr. Prime Minister!
The majority of Israelis, are territorialist, rather than expansionist. They realize the future of Israel is a smaller Israel.
ReplyDeleteTo weaken Hamas, something has to be given to Abbas.
Israel is moving left quicker than I realized. Don't read my latest post.
Ren, the majority of Israelis are very liberal, sick of fighting their grandfathers war, and are willing to concede to any and all arab demands in the hope that it will end conflict. Many if not most Israelis would leave Israel and move to America or Europe if they had the money. More and more Israeli youth take exemptions from military service, and leave Israel after college without inteding to come back.
ReplyDeleteThe Socialist Zionism of their forefathers is extinct and has been replaced with Progressive Post-Zionism. They see Religious Zionism as the belief system of raving lunatics. They view secular nationalism as bigotry against the arabs and an impedement to the peace process.
Israel has always been a leftwing country, Ren, but it was also Zionist in the past. That is no longer the case today, and a growing majority identify themselves as Israeli and not Jewish. They don't identify with worldwide Jewry, they identify with western values and culture. They don't feel Israel is connected to diaspara, but is itself a secular nation with a distinct, unique "Israeli" culture.
You see, without the Jewish connection the State of Israel becomes nothing but a tourist attraction and a giant Holocaust museum. World Jewry is also very secular, and the number of Jews who feel that the Land of Israel is worth fighting for at all costs shrinks by the day.
maybe next time he'll release some when bAho closes gitmo and we can all have a big group hug?~?
ReplyDeleteren - have you thought of expanding your own home? you know - invite your husband's family to live with you and a few other shirttail relatives? and some of their relatives?
MZ:
ReplyDelete"Many if not most Israelis would leave Israel and move to America or Europe if they had the money. More and more Israeli youth take exemptions from military service, and leave Israel after college without inteding to come back."
You sure about that? If so it wouldn't really surprise me all that much though. Forty years of illegal occupation and the unabated expansion of settlements (still today) must make many Israelis feel their government is rudderless: all this has wreaked nothing but misery on a people that never harmed Jews in the first place and has turned Israel into a fortress, constantly looking over its shoulder. Despite that, the Arabs are still willing to make concessions.
"They see Religious Zionism as the belief system of raving lunatics. They view secular nationalism as bigotry against the arabs and an impedement to the peace process."
Peace is what everybody needs, no People can live in a state of perennial war forever. And since as most of the settler are deeply religious, religion must logically be seen by many as the impediment to peace. Add to that the increased Islamification of a previous equally secular people (the Palestinians) and you have a lot of secularists scratching their heads...
"They don't identify with worldwide Jewry, they identify with western values and culture. They don't feel Israel is connected to diaspara, but is itself a secular nation with a distinct, unique "Israeli" culture."
Madze, at the point of the creation of Israel to create a convincing Nationalistic narrative, connecting to Biblical Israel, yet secular in nature, was always going to be a hat trick that required quite a bit of schmalzy, ersatz stuff (much like any other nationalistic tale really...) What, after all, connected, say Viennese Socialite Holocaust survivors, with an underdeveloped patch of land and the relatively few Jews who had lived there since Exodus? Not much, really... Successive waves of immigrants must make modern Israel quite a stratified society (multicultural in a sense) depending on origin, ethnic sub-group, language of origin, whether one was born there or not, whether one is the direct descendant of someone who was born there, whether one is the direct descendant of those who lived there prior to the creation of Israel etc etc.
The settlers seem to me to try and bridge a gap of x,000 years of history (which simply can't be done) and as a consequence live lives that are as culturally determined as anybody else's: they may kid themselves into believing they're following in their forefathers' steps but that's just another illusion.
The 'multicultural' Israel, secure behind (roughly) pre-1967 borders would have much to offer the world and would certainly be a beacon of democracy in a part of the world that is still developing that concept.
MZ, your link 'Moshiach Remez' is a Messianic site! I speaks about 'Yeshua' and the Gospels!!!!!! Hello!
ReplyDeleteYou have to be careful.
Wow, thank you for informing me of that, BK! Man, they can be incredibly sneaky where they slip in the Jesus worship, eh? Great vigilance - I'll zap it right now.
ReplyDeleteGert, let me correct your errors:
ReplyDeleteForty years of illegal occupation and the unabated expansion of settlements (still today) must make many Israelis feel their government is rudderless.
Illegal occupation? That's rich. It's illegal to whom? To Jordan, the country who possessed the land before their offensive failed in 1967? Earth to leftist: Jordan long ago renounced their claim to that land, so for you or anyone else to declare that it somehow belongs to the PLO instead of Israel is ludicrous.
Unabated settlements? That's even richer. Are you suggesting that Jews should be banned from living in Judea because they are Jewish? Are you even remotely aware of how anti-Semitic that is?
Jews have the right to live nearly anywhere in the world, but you say the one place where Jews must be forbidden to live is Judea??
Hebron, most of old Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount must be made Judenrein? You are so oblivious to your own bigotry it's scary. There is no nation that can claim the West Bank except Israel, so you want to invent a new country, call it "Palestine", and hand it to the most anti-Semitic people on earth?
Great plan. Ban the Jews from setting foot in Judea, Samaria, the Temple Mount, and most of Old Jerusalem rather than allow Israel to rightfully annex it after Jordan renounced their claim after being defeated in battle.
...all this has wreaked nothing but misery on a people that never harmed Jews in the first place
Wanna bet? I have a list of arab terrorist attacks against the Jews longer than the bandwidth on this site. If you doubt the fundamental facts of islamic terror than we have nothing to discuss. You live in a fairy tale world of moslem propaganda, and lack all capacity for objectivity.
Despite that, the Arabs are still willing to make concessions.
Really? Name one.
Religion must logically be seen by many as the impediment to peace.
That is a completely irrational and ignorant statement. The victim is to blame for provoking the criminal? Sorry, but no.
[The Settlers] may kid themselves into believing they're following in their forefathers' steps but that's just another illusion.
Wrong. They are indeed following the most fundamental covenant of the Jewish people, the obligation for Jews to settle the Land of Israel, which dates all the way back to Abraham. It is no different than saying the Jews who get circumsized are following an illusion rather than their forefathers steps. You may know a lot about chemistry, but you know nothing of Judaism. Stop pretending you do.
The 'multicultural' Israel, secure behind (roughly) pre-1967 borders would have much to offer the world and would certainly be a beacon of democracy...
So, if Israel returns to the 1948 borders they will be the beacon of democracy? Um, guess what...it also won't be Jewish. There is no way to have a melting pot democracy while simultaneously maintaining a Jewish State. What you are calling for is the destruction of the Jewish State.
Replacing Israel with a "progressive. multicultural democracy of all peoples", while surrounding it with a Judenrein Judea, Samaria, Old Jerusalem, Temple Mount and Kotel, means you advocate abolishing the right of self-governance and sovereignty for the Jewish people. Needless to say, your thinly veiled anti-Semitism resurfaces. You have no problem creating a State that bans Jews, but would never permit a state that is Jewish.
MZ:
ReplyDeleteIn your anger you're trying to put everything on its head, once again. And of course referring to my non-existent anti-Semitism is the oldest trick in the book to try and silence opponents. I'll ignore that and respond calmly.
If you recall sometime ago I wrote that I saw no problem whatsoever with Jews living anywhere in the world including Gaza or Judea and Samaria, provided they accept Palestinian rule (in the latter three of these places). But that's not their purpose: they want the Palestinians OUT. Period. You do, it's the theme of your blog. Over at Ren's I see you're now talking about a secessionist movement (The State of Judea and Samaria?), simply because you can't bear the thought that the tide may slowly be turning against the settlers. Good luck with that...
Like Emmanuel said over at mine in response to you:
"Maybe us sane Israelis should just withdraw our military and let the Palestinians deal with you. After all, we're the ones who defended you with our soldiers and our taxes and you don't seem to appreciate it, so we should just stop and let you and the Palestinians fight with each other."
As regards lists of terrorist attacks, feel free but bear in mind that for every Palestinian-on-Israeli act of terror you've got, I can produce a massacre in the other direction. No cycle of violence, eh?
"That is a completely irrational and ignorant statement. The victim is to blame for provoking the criminal? Sorry, but no."
You are shooting the messenger, i.e. yourself. (read who wrote what again, you're getting confused).
"Wrong. They are indeed following the most fundamental covenant of the Jewish people, the obligation for Jews to settle the Land of Israel, which dates all the way back to Abraham."
Clearly many Jews, many of them observant, don't see it that way. Want a list?
Tell me, what would you have done if successive Israeli Governments had prohibited to give any potential settlers the land the IDF occupied in 1967? Then there would have no settlements and in all likelihood a two-state solution would have been in place by now.
As regards Arab concessions, it would be useless to list any Arab peace initiatives (several still on the table), you would reject either their existence or their content. It doesn't fit your deeply Manichean outlook on life but the Arab nations are well resigned to the Jewish State in their midst. They may not like it but they'll live with it...
Gert, it is utterly pointless to have this discussion. You are certain that the arabs have the right to the land and the Jews do not. I completely disagree and claim the opposite is true. If self-loathing Jews think you are right, well that changes nothing in my eyes. If arab Zionists come out and speak in favor of all Israel being for the Jews that changes nothing in your eyes.
ReplyDeleteYou want one nation in Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem exclusively for the arabs, and one progressive, multi-national region west of Jerusalem for all peoples of all ethnicities, religions, and backgrounds.
I want one sliver of land just for the Jewish people, and the rest of the surrounding billion acres for the arabs.
In my scenario everyone gets a homeland. In yours, everyone except the Jews gets a homeland.
What's left to discuss? You see moral equivalence in everything. You don't differentiate between Jews fighting for their very survival against a terrorist enemy and arabs sseking to drive the Jews into the sea with relentless terror.
I see no middle ground. I offer no compromises, no relenting, and not one inch of backing off of the claim to every last centimeter of the Land of Israel for the Jewish people.
The arabs can have the rest, but this they cannot. If you disagree, and every self loathing Jew in the world disagrees, too, it will not matter one lick.
My claim is Torah based, imutable, eternal, and not open to discussion or compromise. It is our land, the land for the Jews and only the Jews, it is not yours, it is not the arabs, and I really could care less if all of you want to play God and decide how it should be divided up. It is the inheritance of one people and one people only: The Jews.
madze - why do you allow b.k. to boss you around? was there something at the site that was uncorrect?
ReplyDeleteNanc, BK was not bullying, he was helping. It was a messianic missionary site in disguise. I didn't notice it because they sneaked in the Christianity near the bottom of the very long page. Very deceiving, but that's what these groups do...they try and use deception to trick the vulnerable into unknowingly following their cause. I don't permit these sites on my blogroll as you know.
ReplyDeleteMZ:
ReplyDeleteYour points have been read and noted. Further attempts at rebuttal are futile so I'll limit it to the most obvious fallacy you came up with:
"In my scenario everyone gets a homeland. In yours, everyone except the Jews gets a homeland."
The Jews have had a homeland since 1948: it's called Israel. I support it.
Gert, you mentioned that Israel should be a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-national land of all people and cultures. There may happen to be many Jews dwelling there mixed in with all the others, but exactly what makes that constitute a Jewish State? You yourself said it required some slick, jingoistic narrative to justify such a state and now believe we should be beyond such folly.
ReplyDeleteWhat you advocate is zoning off a small section of a tiny state where Jews would be permitted to live in an international melting pot of western sensibilities.
We already have that, Gert. We have have Canada, Europe, Australia and the United States...what you are suggesting is dissolving Jewish self-governance and exterminating Zionism in favor of international multiculturalism.
I genuinely believe you want this because you think it will make the world a better place, but we will have to agree to disagree.
Madze:
ReplyDelete"Gert, you mentioned that Israel should be a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-national land of all people and cultures."
You're misreading me. Where I referred to multicultural, multi-ethic and multi-national I'm simply referring to the various strands of Diaspora Jews that arrive in Israel everyday from various parts of the world, with a near-automatic right to citizenship, as they have from the day Israel was born (and before, during the nation building period).
I agree that Israel must maintain its Jewish character. Some consider that racist but I'm not one of them. If a Jewish majority can be maintained in Israel proper then Jews will have nothing to fear from minorities they host. That situation is then not very different from most other countries, nearly all of which are made up of majorities, hosting loyal, mostly assimilated minorities.
"What you advocate is zoning off a small section of a tiny state where Jews would be permitted to live in an international melting pot of western sensibilities."
No, I am not advocating that. But by Israel having a very liberal immigration policy vis-à-vis Jewish candidates for citizenship, a certain degree of de facto dilution and multi-culturalism is simply inevitable. Call it the law of unintended consequences. It's simply inevitable that Western Jewish Aliah's will be more attuned to Western sensibilities. What do you suggest: "re-education programs", perhaps?
Gert, are you saying that the sliver you are willing to allocate for the Jews could be governed as a Jewish only democracy? If so, you are advocating the same plan I am, only I want the borders to include all of the land of Israel, not just the green line.
ReplyDeleteBe careful, if this keeps up you may become a Mad Zionist! ;)
Nanc: I take it that I've fallen out of your good books. Alas!
ReplyDeleteno, b.k., but you're awfully bossy! and i thought i was bad...
ReplyDeletebesides, i came to have a snob beer.
p.s. - what was your torah reading on 11/15/08, madze?
ReplyDeleteLets get to basics. Why differentiate religious from secular Jews? Israel was not formed for that reason.
ReplyDeleteNanc: My relatives are a nightmare, to be hidden from.
MZ:
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't see a great convergence between your plan and my plan (lol).
I didn't talk about a "Jewish Democracy only", I talked about a Jewish majority, that's not the same thing.
Ren:
"Israel was not formed for that reason."
No, it wasn't but it seems some want to redefine its purpose. Now someone is going to tell me I've got an "atheist agenda" (damned if you do, damned if you don't).
ren - we moved 1700 miles from ours! life has never been better.
ReplyDeleteplease check your email - i have a question for you - thankx!
ReplyDelete